[squid-users] Is this the next step of SSL encryption? Fwd: Encrypted SNI

[Eliezer Croitoru]

I have seen this post and I was wondering, is this the next step of SSL
encryption?

Eliezer

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fwd: Encrypted SNI
Date: 2018-10-03 20:40
From: Владислав Толмачев <***@gmail.com>
To: ***@nginx.org
Reply-To: ***@nginx.org

When nginx will emplemented Encrypted SNI support?
Cloudflare already do this,
https://www.cloudflare.com/ssl/encrypted-sni/
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http://mailman.nginx.org/mailman/listinfo/nginx

[Amish]

Today Cloudflare added more information that Firefox has already added
the support for ESNI in Nightly.

https://blog.cloudflare.com/encrypt-that-sni-firefox-edition/

Looks like ssl_bump is going to break once ESNI and Encrypted DNS are
universal. (Ofcourse it may be few years away)

Probably only way out to detect the domain name would be by implementing
CONNECT proxy instead of transparent one.

I am happy with complete encryption all over but its going to be more
and more difficult to convince bosses!! :D

Regards,

Amish.

Post by Eliezer Croitoru
I have seen this post and I was wondering, is this the next step of
SSL encryption?
Eliezer
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fwd: Encrypted SNI
Date: 2018-10-03 20:40
When nginx will emplemented Encrypted SNI support?
Cloudflare already do this,
https://www.cloudflare.com/ssl/encrypted-sni/
_______________________________________________
nginx mailing list
http://mailman.nginx.org/mailman/listinfo/nginx

[Alex Rousskov]

Post by Amish
Looks like ssl_bump is going to break once ESNI and Encrypted DNS are
universal. (Ofcourse it may be few years away)
Probably only way out to detect the domain name would be by implementing
CONNECT proxy instead of transparent one.

Using forward proxies may not help as much: A CONNECT request that uses
an IP address (instead of a domain name) is pretty much as uninformative
as a TCP connection intercepted by a transparent proxy.

Alex.

[Matus UHLAR - fantomas]

Post by Alex Rousskov

Post by Amish
Looks like ssl_bump is going to break once ESNI and Encrypted DNS are
universal. (Ofcourse it may be few years away)
Probably only way out to detect the domain name would be by implementing
CONNECT proxy instead of transparent one.

Using forward proxies may not help as much: A CONNECT request that uses
an IP address (instead of a domain name) is pretty much as uninformative
as a TCP connection intercepted by a transparent proxy.

disabling DNS in the internal network could help that a bit. That way
browser will have to use the proxy to resolve hostnames, so they will be
available to the proxy.

There are networks separated from the internet, where even the DNS may not
be available, so browsers can't rely on DNS being available.

[Alex Rousskov]

Post by Matus UHLAR - fantomas

Post by Alex Rousskov

Post by Amish
Looks like ssl_bump is going to break once ESNI and Encrypted DNS are
universal. (Ofcourse it may be few years away)
Probably only way out to detect the domain name would be by implementing
CONNECT proxy instead of transparent one.

Using forward proxies may not help as much: A CONNECT request that uses
an IP address (instead of a domain name) is pretty much as uninformative
as a TCP connection intercepted by a transparent proxy.

disabling DNS in the internal network could help that a bit.

... until the browser starts using DNS over HTTPS (with a pinned
certificate of the "resolving" HTTPS server)?
Alex.

[Marcus Kool]

Post by Alex Rousskov

Post by Matus UHLAR - fantomas

Post by Alex Rousskov

Post by Amish
Looks like ssl_bump is going to break once ESNI and Encrypted DNS are
universal. (Ofcourse it may be few years away)
Probably only way out to detect the domain name would be by implementing
CONNECT proxy instead of transparent one.

Using forward proxies may not help as much: A CONNECT request that uses
an IP address (instead of a domain name) is pretty much as uninformative
as a TCP connection intercepted by a transparent proxy.

disabling DNS in the internal network could help that a bit.

... until the browser starts using DNS over HTTPS (with a pinned
certificate of the "resolving" HTTPS server)?
Alex.

It is relatively easy to block DNS over HTTPS and I think there will be demand for that.
And I predict that Squid will have a feature to selectively block connections with ESNI to force clients to use the plain text SNI.

Marcus

[Alex Crow]

Post by Marcus Kool

Post by Alex Rousskov
... until the browser starts using DNS over HTTPS (with a pinned
certificate of the "resolving" HTTPS server)?
  Alex.

It is relatively easy to block DNS over HTTPS and I think there will be demand for that.
And I predict that Squid will have a feature to selectively block
connections with ESNI to force clients to use the plain text SNI.
Marcus

I can still see the endpoint security companies will be raking it in.
Any of those fallbacks could be disabled by the browsers.

We're going to have to make sure that the endpoint solution is able to
see all content before it is rendered or interpreted in the browser too.

The problem is that the whole SSL/TLS trust management system is
fundamentally broken and I can't see that changing soon. PGP's model was
great in theory (web of trust) but most people simply don't care who
sends them what and can't be bothered to complicate their lives any
more. And why should they? If their bank site works, Farcebook works and
Hotmail works, why worry? We've built an entire social structure on two
basic principles - "if I've done nothing wrong..." and "who'd be
interested in my data?".



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[Troiano Alessio]

Sorry but, I'm loosing something...
Also if client will use ESNI, the server should response with a certificate that will be in clear and has all server information, like alias... So is it possible to know what is the resource the client is looking for. Only with wildcard certificate you can't.

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[Alex Rousskov]

Post by Troiano Alessio
Also if client will use ESNI, the server should response with a certificate that will be in clear

Starting with TLS v1.3, the server certificate is encrypted.

Alex.

[Eliezer Croitoru]

I believe that eventually some of these features would be targeted by
the overall security community.
Security from one hand has encryption as a tool but it was already
proven that obscurity is not really security.
In fact until now from what I know many of the more sane clients in the
private and the public sector prefer to be able to cope with specific
issues directly and not hide them.
Like in the hardware world complex functions were embedded into
different types of CPU's or PU's and the large sector wants and needs
it,
the Internet clients and users already understands that they want to be
able to have some control either by a proxy service provider or by other
means.
Just the other day I entered a "secured" site which is under the trust
of a well know RootCA and what I got was a bunch of pop ups with exactly
the things I want and need ie:
- Women underwear (with a demo how the body looks with and without the
underwear) Whaaaat? yes I do not have an issue with that but Whaaat? I'm
a man I need a working man shirts for work..
- The best Porn addiction solution. I am most of the day work with CLI
or a text editor or System administration utilities.
- How to operate a specific software which I have never heard about.
....

It's nice to have some laugh while working but my co-worker (a women)
didn't liked the idea and I agree with her.

And nothing less then that, CloudFlare was hosting or proxying to these
sites acting as a frontend.


Thanks All,
Eliezer

Post by Alex Rousskov

Post by Troiano Alessio
Also if client will use ESNI, the server should response with a
certificate that will be in clear

Starting with TLS v1.3, the server certificate is encrypted.
Alex.
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